No longer able to get a CPL / CCW with a medical marijuana patient card?

I cannot imagine that to be the case, though I cannot confirm either way.  The bottom line is pretty simple:  Michigan is a "shall issue" CCW state, meaning that, without reason, they cannot deny your application for a CCW.  To compound this, you have HIPAA on your side, which is basically a patient rights bill that prevents people from knowing your medical history that you don't want them to know.  As such, it would seem only logical to me that you don't need to let anyone know of your MM status, and nobody can compel you to give up the information (that would be a civil liberties kind of thing).  So, since the gun board can't realistically find out your MM status if you don't tell them, the smart thing (to me) seems to be to simply not tell them of your status.  However, I am not a lawyer, so, take this for what it's worth and with a grain of salt.

Another member spoke with James Tieman- Firearms Training Consultant- Michigan State Police, and He stated that you can not have a CPL and a MMMP card as of April 2011. A CPL is federally licensed and once the board finds out you have your card they consider you a "drug addict", his words, and they will revoke your CPL. This all came about, by the way, when i took my CPL class yesterday, 6-26-11, and the instructor, Mark Cortis- (248) 506-3472, said he went to a seminar in april and that's the new rule. The seminar was given by: James Tieman- Firearms Training Consultant- Michigan State Police, (734) 395-0199, NICSMI@aol.com. I intend to contact mr. Tieman to confirm this, but wanted to get others opinions/thoughts/knowledge first. As far as HIPAA, I would now think that would fall in the same area as it being a federal program and marijuana still being an illegal controlled substance on the federal level?

Another member spoke with James Tieman- Firearms Training Consultant- Michigan State Police, and He stated that you can not have a CPL and a MMMP card as of April 2011. A CPL is federally licensed and once the board finds out you have your card they consider you a "drug addict", his words, and they will revoke your CPL.

-oystergates

I have no doubt that if the federal government found out about your MMMP card, yes, they would revoke your CPL.  However, the point of my last post was that it would be, at least in theory, next to impossible for them to find out, UNLESS you told them.  It is illegal for the police, without a warrant, to get your medical information, among which is your MMMP status.  So, unless you tell them you have a card, they won't be able to LEGALLY find out. 

That being said, if you attempt to get your CPL/CCW and they deny you, they have to tell you why you are denied.  If they tell you that the reason you're denied is because you have an MMMP card, and you didn't sign away your HIPAA rights (which you shouldn't have to do to get a CCW), that means they found out about it in an illegal way, pretty much, and that's grounds for a lawsuit which you would almost assuredly win IF you went at it from the HIPAA end of things (not the MMMP or CCW end of things).  Of course, that wouldn't help you get a gun, but hey at least you'd be rich!  ;)

So, I guess, without being a lawyer, I would simply keep your mouth shut about things that they are not allowed to ask you about without your permission.  Simply, do not tell them you have the card.  An omission of fact is not a lie, it's more like "standing mute", in legalese.

I have no doubt that if the federal government found out about your MMMP card, yes, they would revoke your CPL.  However, the point of my last post was that it would be, at least in theory, next to impossible for them to find out, UNLESS you told them.  It is illegal for the police, without a warrant, to get your medical information, among which is your MMMP status.  So, unless you tell them you have a card, they won't be able to LEGALLY find out. 
That being said, if you attempt to get your CPL/CCW and they deny you, they have to tell you why you are denied.  If they tell you that the reason you're denied is because you have an MMMP card, and you didn't sign away your HIPAA rights (which you shouldn't have to do to get a CCW), that means they found out about it in an illegal way, pretty much, and that's grounds for a lawsuit which you would almost assuredly win IF you went at it from the HIPAA end of things (not the MMMP or CCW end of things).  Of course, that wouldn't help you get a gun, but hey at least you'd be rich!  ;)
So, I guess, without being a lawyer, I would simply keep your mouth shut about things that they are not allowed to ask you about without your permission.  Simply, do not tell them you have the card.  An omission of fact is not a lie, it's more like "standing mute", in legalese.

-jggoslin

I agree they can not find out legally that you are a mm patient unless you tell them. GOOD POINT!!

What about LEO having access to the MM database via The LEIN system? Now, unless they have your registration number they cannot find you or your grow directly, as far as I know. This is for in case a raid is underway and the suspects provide officers with their patient/caregivers cards they then run your id # through the lien system. I don't think they can randomly get our info, but is it possible or could they use LEIN for the purpose of denying a CPL? Anyway, After looking into it and reading a lot, I am beginning to agree with you, it may end up being a don't ask don't tell situation. Thanks for the thoughts.

http://cannabispatientsunited.org/documents/lein

I have both obtaining my cpl several years ago and my medical and patient cards last year. On a federal level you would receive a 2 year flat charge for the gun violation as the don't recognize the state medical program. I had msp stop in for a site check a month ago but they didn't run my name so I'm not sure how that would have worked out at that point. I never carry both at the same time. If as a caretaker I am running meds to a patient I leave my gun behind. If you carry your gun avoid taking meds with you. Only deal with your own patients as well. Simple steps to avoid jail time. The feds will lock you up and at best it will be 2 years flat with potential of upwards of 6 as the could hit you for 3 separate felonies(manufacturing of a controlled substance, possession of a firearm, possession of a firearm while in the act of committing a felony) . As always if you get grabbed by the cops don't say a word and only speak with your lawyer.

guys, to lgally obtain a new ffl you must answer some questions on the application. Falsifying a federal application is punishable by law, ans is compounded by the fact that it was for the illegal acquisition of a fire arm in the first place.
The answer to the ops q is YES.
question on the form is like do you use any illegal scheduled drugs, including marijuana(mentined specifically). If you were found to have one already you may be able to say you just started using, but not since your mj registration.
Hippa will only protect the transaction/transfer of medical records, and is not a protection from the federal government to see the health records of the state, think about immunizations..they are on it right this minute, with phone calls to those who are not immunized, and also for the location and harrassment fo rthose avoiding immunization. I think they must now work for big pharma, as a pro active sales force.

the point is not the acquisition, or the posession of a ccw, but the fact that a lie was told in the first place.

I did not renew

Canna is right if you lie on the application it is a felony !!

I have a current CCW permit and do not want to see it laps but i have no choice. Can someone post a link or explain why anyone who grows medical marijuana (even legally) cannot possess any firearms, not even my hunting rifles? I don't think it should be an offense. They are essentially taking away my right to defend myself and the 2nd amendment. I don't understand it, more importantly i don't want to be illegal. Especially with respect to firearms.

Please any help......

The main problem is that the federal gov does not recognize medical marijuana.
So while at the state level you are legal at the federal you are in possession of a firearm while in commission of a felony. There are added charges for that.
With the ccw you must perjure yourself on a federal form to get it which is a federal felony.

Thank you andyh, that does answer my previous question and makes total sense. But, i don't want to sound like i believe everything i see on TV but I've always notice how they charge people for a felony gun charge when the tv camera clearly shows that the gun is a hunting rifle or shotgun. While i want to comply completely with the law, it is not convenient for me to place my guns in a safe place other than my own home. And, i want to have protection for my family even though i don't live in a bad crime area. I believe what will someday happen is criminals will learn that all he has to do is figure out who grows and the chances of them having guns to defend themselves is very low because the laws make it illegal for us to have guns around, even to defend ourselves. That seems like the wrong way for the laws to go.
I really want to be able to read this part of the law for myself. I welcome any and all input but i am trying to find this "law" in writing so i can justify the costs I'm going to incur if /when i store my guns. To me this is revoking my 2nd amendment rights, and I don't agree with it at all. I understand that while under the influence of alcohol, people shouldn't be carrying weapons but first of all this is medicine and if used as such shouldn't be limited to protect yourself and or your family. And secondly, I'm mostly referring to having the guns in my home in general. Once my guns are out of my home and the criminals know it, what's to stop them then?

Anybody know where i can read this law?

Thanks,
Seriousmeds

   To me it seems that having fire arms for hunting in your home is a whole different thing then carrying a pistol around (CCW) away from your home. I can't imagine the government letting anyone who is a legal caregiver in a state carry a concealed weapon while supplying patients with meds outside there property. I will protect my property wether I have a CCW or not but carrying a gun around outside the home seems a bit extreme to me. Can you imagine the backlash if a caregiver shot a patient it would put a screaching halt to the movement towards legalization for sure. I am not saying I agree or disagree just my opinion.  

The firearms lawyers at Kronzek & Cronkright, PLLC are aware that many gun shop owners and operators are now asking gun purchasers whether they are medical cannabis patients. The shop owners do not want to get into trouble for selling a firearm or ammunition to a person they know or have reasonable cause to believe is an unlawful user of or addicted to an illegal controlled substance. Selling guns or ammo to a medical marijuana user is a violation of federal law.
For many medical marijuana patients, it is tough to hear that they can no longer possess, transport, ship, or receive guns while they are legal patients. Some may even choose to give up their patient status and stop using weed altogether in favor of keeping their firearms rights. If you are facing this choice, it would be a good idea to contact a criminal defense attorney

GENESEE COUNTY, MI -- Trying to buy a gun, or even dealing with police in any way in some communities, could land medical marijuana patients in reports to federal authorities.

Flushing Police Chief Mark Hoornstra said his department adopted the procedure about six months ago following a training seminar organized by the FBI, which was attended by about a dozen other Michigan law enforcement agencies.
Under the procedure, Hoornstra said his officers report any interactions with individuals identified as medical marijuana patients to the National Instant Criminal Background Check System, or NICS, even if they are not committing a crime or violating the Michigan Medical Marihuana Act.
So far, about 10 medical marijuana users have been reported to the federal government by Flushing Police, Hoornstra said.
The NICS program allows clerks at firearm retailers to quickly identify if a potential buyer has a criminal record or any other red flag, such as drug abuse, that would ban them from purchasing a firearm.
Federal law prohibits the “shipment, transportation, receipt, or possession” of a firearm by anyone that uses or is addicted to a controlled substance, according to Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives form 4473, which firearms buyers are required to complete prior to the purchase a gun.
On the 4473 form, potential buyers are asked if they are an “unlawful user of, or addicted to, marijuana or any depressant, stimulant, or narcotic drug, or any other controlled substance.”
Medicinal marijuana is legal in Michigan, but it is still illegal under federal law. This was highlighted in a September 2011 letter sent out by the ATF to all federal firearm dealers.
The letter spells out that gun dealers cannot sell firearms to people that are identified as medical marijuana users.
“The regulations, under which NICS operates, permits the NICS examiners to make an inference of use when the subject is found in possession of a controlled substance,” the FBI’s Stephen Fischer Jr. wrote in an email to The Flint Journal. “If a known user attempts to buy a firearm from a (Federal Firearm Licensee), then NICS can and will deny the transaction.”
Answering “yes” to the drug question on the 4473 disqualifies the potential buyer from purchasing the firearm. However, with the FBI-backed procedure, the NICS program could already know the answer to that question before the buyer ever even fills out the form.
The FBI confirmed that it does receive information from Michigan law enforcement agencies.
“State and local law enforcement do not have to report persons to any of the NICS databases – i.e., they are not mandated by the federal government to do so,” Fischer wrote. “They do so voluntarily for law enforcement purposes.”
However, Fischer said the FBI does not maintain a database specifically to identify medical marijuana patients.
“The NICS does not keep track of medical marijuana users,” Fischer wrote. “It does keep records of denied transactions by persons who have recorded use of controlled substances (e.g., arrests and convictions) within certain time spans and who have been discovered in possession of a firearm.”
Matthew Abel, an attorney with the Detroit-based Cannabis Counsel, a law firm that specializes in marijuana issues, says he believes the procedure of reporting medical marijuana patients to the federal government is in violation of state law.
“The Medical Marihuana Act has provisions that anyone that discloses information is guilty of a misdemeanor,” Abel said.
According to the Michigan Medical Marihuana Act, “applications and supporting information submitted by qualifying patients, including information regarding their primary caregivers and physicians, are confidential.”
The law goes on to say that the information can be used to verify to law enforcement if a medical marijuana patient’s identification card is valid, but “a person, including an employee or official of the department or another state agency or local unit of government, who discloses confidential information in violation of this act is guilty of a misdemeanor, punishable by imprisonment for not more than 6 months, or a fine of not more than $1,000.00, or both.”
Hoornstra defended his department’s procedure, saying that it is up to the federal government to decide what it does with the information after it is received. The chief also said he does not believe he is in violation of state law.
“Our job is to enforce the laws of the state and federal government,” Hoornstra said. “All we do is report.”
Meanwhile, Michigan gun dealers are caught in the middle.
A number of federal firearm licensees around Genesee County said they have been approached by medical marijuana patients about buying firearms but had to break the news to them that they are unable to purchase one.
And while federal law does not require a firearm dealer to ask a potential buyer if they are a medical marijuana user, dealers say they have turned people away if they believe they aren’t legally allowed to purchase a gun.
“We err on the side of safety,” said Dan Compeau, chief operating officer for Williams Gun Sight in Davison. “Firearms are probably the highest regulated things that are sold.”

Medical marijuana patients cannot legally have guns or ammunition, according to the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives.
In an open letter dated Sept. 21, Arthur Herbert, the assistant director of enforcement programs and services at the ATF, wrote that federal law prohibits unlawful users or addicts of controlled substances from possessing firearms or ammunition.
“There are no exceptions in Federal law for marijuana purportedly used for medical purposes, even if such use is sanctioned by State law,” the letter stated.
So in Michigan, hunters who use marijuana to treat a medical condition under the state-sanctioned program cannot own a rifle or shotgun.
“I think it is a complete violation of the Second Amendment,” said Lansing-based attorney Mary Chartier, who has handled several medical marijuana cases. “I think it is an all-out assault on people who use medical marijuana.”

But Jackson County Sheriff Steve Rand doubts the memo will gain much traction in the county or the state. Rand said there needs to be more direction and clarification from the state Legislature or courts.
“A federal memo is a far cry from a Supreme Court decision,” Rand said Thursday. “It is not something that will necessarily make us change our policy suddenly.”
The sheriff’s office issues purchase permits to people wishing to buy handguns. The permit application does not ask about drug use, but Rand’s staff ask “probing questions” if there is suspicion. Rand said employees who issue purchase permits have just been sent for more training on the procedure.
Drugs and guns do not mix, Rand said, and his office does everything they can to keep firearms out of the hands of users and addicts. That said, Rand does not believe a person with a medical marijuana card is always under the influence and should never possess a firearm.
“We’re in the middle again,” Rand said. “You are trying to comply with state and federal law, and they are opposed to each other.”
Despite the Michigan Medical Marijuana Act passed in 2008, the drug is still classified federally as a schedule I narcotic and treated the same as heroin, LSD, PCP and crack. The violations outlined in the ATF memo would have to be prosecuted in federal court by federal prosecutors.
The state’s concealed pistol license application does not ask about drug use either, but Michigan law states that a concealed pistol license shall not be issued unless “the applicant is not prohibited under federal law from possession or transporting a firearm.”
Jackson County Circuit Judge John McBain, who teaches the legal portion of some concealed pistol safety courses in the area, did not think federal prosecutors would start pursuing medical marijuana patients with concealed pistol licenses. People approved for concealed pistol licenses must have near spotless criminal records and undergo state and federal background checks.
“I guess they could do it under the law,” McBain said. “I would be surprised to see the U.S. attorney’s office make that an issue.”
Written in response to several questions posed to the ATF about medical marijuana and federal firearm laws, the letter was originally addressed to federal firearms licensees, people who manufacture or import guns and ammunition. It warns license holders of their legal exposure if they provide firearms to people using medical marijuana.
But since the end of September, the letter has shown up in prosecutors offices across Michigan and on the websites of attorneys specializing in medical marijuana cases and advocacy groups.
Chartier said the law forces people to choose between the right to own a firearm and the right to choose their own medical treatment. It is a scare tactic to discourage people from joining Michigan’s medical marijuana program. She said police in Michigan and an attorney general, who “is very creative in going after” medical marijuana patients, could use the memo to pursue otherwise lawful gun owners.
“It’s very, very unfortunate,” said Southfield-based attorney Michael Komorn, who specializes in medical marijuana law. “It’s crazy that they’ve identified a class of people that they have determined don’t have a Second Amendment right. It’s insane.”
Komorn, who devoted a large portion of his weekly radio show on Wednesday to the letter, said the guidance from the ATF violates protections in the 2008 Michigan Medical Marijuana Act. The voter-initiated law states that registered patients and caregivers shall not be “denied any right or privilege ... for use of marijuana in accordance with this act.”
“Those protections were supposed to mean something,” Komorn said.
Komorn does not like the signal the letter sends to some police who want to trample on the rights of medical marijuana users, Komorn said. He has represented several medical marijuana users charged with gun crimes at the state level. He said police are looking for ways to make patients and caregivers criminals and will not ignore this opportunity.
“They’re looking at them as if they are dope dealers who have guns. And that’s a problem. That’s a real problem,” he said.

The U.S. Attorney's Office in Grand Rapids announced on Wednesday that Scott William Messenger was indicted by a federal grand jury in U.S. District for the Western District of Michigan.

Messenger faces five charges: Selling a firearm to an unlawful marijuana user, possession of an unregistered firearm, being an unlawful user of marijuana with more than 10 firearms and a large amount of ammunition, manufacturing marijuana and marijuana possession with intent to distribute.

If convicted, Messenger could face up to 10 years in prison with a $250,000 fine for the firearms charges and five years in prison with a $250,000 fine for the marijuana charges.

U.S. Attorney Donald A. Davis pointed out that Congress has determined that "unlawful users of controlled substances pose a risk to society if permitted to bear arms."

The charges came after an investigation conducted by the federal Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives; the State, Sheriff's, Chief's Enforcement Narcotics Team; and the Mason County Sheriff's Department.

You see, just the attempt of making a purchase will get your ass reported to the feds, and you will become a person of interest. grand Rapids has a similar case right now, and all over the place.

um.....

delay no longer people

Wow!

Again, I believe this revokes my second amendment right. I am a law abiding citizen and always have been. Now, because i made a medical decision, with the assistance and approval of my "DR", my right to own a gun to protect myself and my family are being removed by individuals of our legal system. Obviously this is not right. The sad part is that its probably going to take the loss of several innocent lives for this to be corrected.
I pray its not my family!

Do you really need one ? Michigan is an open carry state.
Concealed Carry Prohibited by Statute - Open Carry Generally Legal
 Open Carry of a Loaded Handgun